|
 |
 |
|
|
 |
21 Aug 2005 05:28 | billaboy | Xbox 360 Xbox360News.com | Link to this article 
Just in case you were one of the many people who were not able to login for the chat with J Allard, Major Nelson has been nice enough to provide us with a transcript of today's chat. This is the transcript from the online chat with J Allard regarding some of the concerns the community has with Microsoft's recent announcements about the two versions of Xbox 360. Enjoy. Add Comment  1 -
s-video?Unregistered - yoyo 08.21.2005 17:47 will the cables bundled with the premium pack support s-video? 2 -
Unregistered - Soph 08.21.2005 17:49 Great! 3 -
Unregistered - Darky 08.21.2005 18:39 He tell us to "leave him feedback" several times on several subjects. How exaclty can we do this? 4 -
Unregistered - Keegan 08.21.2005 19:27 he didn't answer any real questions. Like releasedate, origen360.com, where the keyboard and video camera are!? wtf 5 -
Unregistered - Zach 08.21.2005 20:09 Don't be a moron, those weren't what he was supposed to adress in that chat. Besides, what idiot doesn't know that the camera has been delayd until Spring? 6 -
Unregistered - Zach 08.21.2005 20:10 No, premium supports composite. 7 -
Unregistered - Dr. Gonzo 08.21.2005 21:59 it would have been nice to have s-video cables with premium. oh well, in december/january im getting a lcd hdtv. but i have to play with crappy composite until then :(. 8 -
Unregistered - pimp 08.21.2005 22:19 you'll geet over it shit face 9 -
great value!!Unregistered - a-bomb 08.21.2005 23:11 I feel that some of the hardcore gamers have been too hard on microsoft. Lets keep things in perspective: They are offering a hell of a lot for 400 bucks. At this price they will still lose money on the system. It is an unbelievably powerful system that developers will learn to utilize its potential power over the next five years. Multi core game programming is a new frontier and we can expect great launch games and even better 2nd and 3rd generation games that more fully utilize the sytstem. It plays dvd's, CD's, your MP3 player, etc. I feel that the 400 dollar package is a phenomenal deal. I am somewhat dissapointed that the system is really 500 bucks for me since I am connecting to the internet wirelessly (and the network adapter is 100 bucks). But even at 500 bucks I am stoked and am dying to give them my money!!! 10 -
great value!!Unregistered - a-bomb 08.21.2005 23:11 I feel that some of the hardcore gamers have been too hard on microsoft. Lets keep things in perspective: They are offering a hell of a lot for 400 bucks. At this price they will still lose money on the system. It is an unbelievably powerful system that developers will learn to utilize its potential power over the next five years. Multi core game programming is a new frontier and we can expect great launch games and even better 2nd and 3rd generation games that more fully utilize the sytstem. It plays dvd's, CD's, your MP3 player, etc. I feel that the 400 dollar package is a phenomenal deal. I am somewhat dissapointed that the system is really 500 bucks for me since I am connecting to the internet wirelessly (and the network adapter is 100 bucks). But even at 500 bucks I am stoked and am dying to give them my money!!! 11 -
wirelessUnregistered - joe 08.22.2005 00:10 Can't you just use the wireless u have now instead of spending 100 on a new one? 12 -
Unregistered - Zach 08.22.2005 16:50 I have S-Video, S-video SUCKS, it isn't true HD. Component (Or the Composite, the Yb Pr cables, I am a bit brain dead 2day :/ ) Cables are way better 13 -
release dateUnregistered - mark 08.23.2005 08:20 just heard on the grape vine that xbox 360 will not be release till February 2006 yet again microsoft has messed up 14 -
Read this..it's long but importantUnregistered - Nieko 08.24.2005 11:46 did not write this, but a friend of a friend on a different forum did... I found it to be an amazing read, and it made me think quite a bit. In the beginning... Today was not a good day to be a fan of the Xbox platform… this would be the best way to summarize the situation we find ourselves in right now. I can certainly understand the reasons why Microsoft decided to go this route, but I also understand that this is an issue that they have been fighting over internally for a while now and have changed their mind on this very subject on more than one occasion. So I find myself here… disappointed that I am with this decision, but this will not deter me from purchasing an Xbox360. I am a fan of games first and a fan of technology second… and the Xbox360 has shown a number of games already that I have interest in even before the system has even launched. Not even the PS3 has as many games that I have interest in right now than the Xbox360 and that is saying quite a bit. I have developed a preference for Microsoft’s systems for what they have shown me over the past several years, but I will be the first to criticize them for something that I consider is a step backwards for gaming or for something I don’t agree with… and this is such a situation. Recently at the Leipzig Games Convention it was announced that the Xbox360 would be offered in two versions. The first version being a “Core System” which includes the base system with NO HARDDRIVE, a standard wired controller, and an AV cable that has multiple connections… this version carries a suggested retail price of $299.99. The second version is a “Premium” version which includes the base system with a 20GB Hard Drive, a wireless controller, a Headset, an HD-AV cable, and for a limited time the media remote for the Xbox360… this version carries a suggested retail price of $399.99. So far the reaction that I have seen, especially across the universe of the internet, as been less than enthusiastic… in fact it was pretty darn right negative from the responses that I have seen so far. The response from the typical consumer was not quite as negative… but I could tell that some was disappointed. The way I see why all this negativity is occurring is because of a couple of factors, the most important one being that this announcement flies in the face of what Microsoft has been saying and implying since the E3. I think the problem is not the fact there is TWO versions that is going to be made available or even the fact there is a Xbox360 system with a $399.99 price tag… but the fact that there is a version of the Xbox360 that does not include a hard drive. This is bad for the consumer and this is bad for the developer, and if it is bad for the developer then it may end up being bad for gaming… and there are a couple of reasons for this. I will discuss these reasons in a moment… but first I would like for everyone to understand that while this is an official statement that this is not set in stone yet (It is implicitly stated that it is subject to change). Microsoft has changed their mind on this subject on more than one occasion and there may be a reason why Microsoft is saying this now. To premium or not to premium… Think about this for a moment… if they believe that the vast majority of consumers out there will be purchasing the premium version then why even release a base model that does not include a hard drive? Having more than one version constrains inventory and makes it harder to have enough units available as you are going to run out of one version or the other faster. If you ship 3 million systems worldwide by the end of 2005… of which the US market is getting about 1.5 million units, Europe getting about 1 million units, and Japan getting 500,000 units… how do you expect to meet demand if about a quarter of those systems will be the base model without the hard drive? What if it is the premium model that is the minority and the majority of the systems is the core system without the hard drive? What if the consumers decide to go one way or the other in regards to which version they end up preferring? If you take away 25% of the systems that would have been premium versions and instead make them into core base systems that means that 3 million becomes 2.25 million and that means of those about 1.1 million of the premium units is available at launch instead of 1.4 million in the US, in Europe that 1 million units becomes 750K premium units, and in Japan that 500K units becomes 375K premium units? What happens if the consumers decide to not even deal with the “Core” Xbox360 system that does not have the hard drive? You are left with an inventory that you can’t do much with and won’t move very fast… and you have just successfully reduced how many systems you just sold during that launch window, and during the holiday season at that. So I ask the question again… why even bother releasing two versions of a platform considering the inventory risks and market reactions, and this without considering the other ramifications of the inclusion/exclusion of a hard drive? If you know that the majority of people won’t bother getting the version without the hard drive then why offer such a version? Choice? That is a fine reason… but all things considered it is better to have one version of a product as this would reduce product confusion. Backward Compatibility… in doubt? The way the backward compatibility will work in the Xbox360 is that the system will emulate the previous Xbox system in software. Most games will make use of a general profile which would not require special fixes or tweaks in order to get them to work correctly, but there will be certain games (especially Xbox exclusive titles that made full use of the system) that may require special fixes or tweaks in order to get them to work correctly. These special cases will require unique profiles for these specific games and Microsoft has a priority list of games that they want made compatible with the Xbox360 that may require these special profiles… in which case those games that are not made backward compatible at launch may require new profiles as they are created to be downloaded to the Xbox360 system in order to make them backward compatible… this means you need Xbox Live to download them and this means you need storage to put these files and profiles needed to get these Xbox games to work on the Xbox360. This is not the biggest problem that I see though… it is in regards to the games themselves and how they worked with the original Xbox system. I speak in regards to the custom soundtrack support in Xbox games, the save systems in various games, and how the game made use of the drive for functions such as data caching. Looking back on a lot of the games originally for the Xbox a lot of them used the hard drive that was included in every system to a greater or lesser extent. Particularly the “Xbox Exclusive” games which took greater advantage of the Xbox system and the fact it had a hard drive that games could use to help those games work. The Xbox system had part of the drive reserved for game use for things such as caching… specifically speaking the Xbox had 3 partitions, each of which is 768MB in size each, that is used for game functions such as caching. Games such as Halo 2 and Ninja Gaiden made HEAVY use of this caching as did certain other games used these partitions for other reasons. There was also another partition for system use that was about 512MB in size and the rest was used for game saves and custom soundtracks (which basically was about 5GBytes of the 8GBytes the drives was formatted to). Some games also used the hard drive automatically as “temporary game state saves” where a game could create a game save in the middle of a game (such as Knights of the Old Republic) and there was also certain other games where the save sizes was very large (again such as Knights of the Old Republic where each SAVE is over 20MB in size). The first problem and probably the biggest problem is in regards to how the Xbox used the hard drive. The Xbox360 has 512MB of RAM and of that about 300-400MB of that can probably be made available for the emulation, and of that you need about 64MB of that reserved for the emulation of the system memory address space of the original Xbox… so we will say about 200-300MB can be made available for caching. Now as I said earlier you have 3 partitions of each being 768MB in size (or a total of 2.3GB)… now the Xbox games did not take up all of this, but it did take up quite a bit (some more than others like Halo 2 which took up more than one cache partition). Those games that require more than 200MB of caching will NOT work with the Xbox360 as you run into memory issues (providing that you allocate part of the memory to use as a virtual drive), and this means a lot of Xbox exclusive games will not work with the Xbox360, as well as a portion of multiplatform games. There is not enough memory to support emulating the cache partitions and expecting the games to work with a vastly more constrained cache partition(s). The second problem is that a lot of Xbox games made use of custom soundtracks… and how are you going to get custom soundtracks to work with the existing Xbox games if there is no hard drive present? You can’t and games that use this won’t work (at least under normal circumstances). The next problem would be in regards to game save sizes… and as we know there were a number of Xbox games that used a lot of memory for each save. The best example being Knights of the Old Republic (BioWare) where it had a autosave feature AND a game save feature… meaning which you need at least 20MB for the autosave and another 20MB for EACH game save. You can’t fit that very well on a 64MB memory card. What about the downloadable content for the original Xbox games (such as the Halo 2 map pack or the Ninja Gaiden Hurricane pack)? You DO NOT have any space to store these on the memory card as these require a hard drive. What about Xbox games that implicitly require a hard drive for game saves? You can’t really make the memory cards in the Xbox360 to act like the hard drive from the original Xbox as those memory cards won’t have a guarantee that they will be present. Microsoft has advertised backward compatibility with the system and I do not see how this will be feasible with all things considered without a hard drive in regards to these previously statement questions. I do not see the “Core System” being backward compatible with the original Xbox games and there are a lot of reasons for this. Xbox Live! With the original Xbox Microsoft made full use of the hard drive by provided various important updates to the core system files, and one of the best examples of this would be Xbox Live. Without the hard drive they could not have even updated the original Xbox system with the files needed to make it work with Xbox Live. Now looking ahead to the Xbox360 while we *MAY* have Xbox live present you are going to be limited in what updates you can do to the core system files or in regards to updates to the Xbox Live service on the Xbox platform… and chances are some of these updates may be too large to store on a memory card. I don’t see Xbox Live working very well with system’s without a hard drive, especially not in the future if Microsoft has to issue an important update for the Xbox Live service client side… and as such I view this as limiting oneself. The consumer is limited in what they can do with Xbox Live… they can’t take advantage of the Live Marketplace, they can’t take advantage of downloadable content, and they also like can’t play on certain servers that may require certain maps to be present that can only be acquired via DLC or support player created content. You are limiting what the consumer can do at the very beginning… and you are limiting what you can do in the future. Custom Soundtracks on the Xbox360… This one is pretty clear… without a hard drive you can’t take advantage of Custom Soundtracks in ANY Xbox360 game. Pure and Simple. From a developer’s standpoint… This is been one of the biggest problems of the console industry from as long as many people can remember. Rarely ever is something that is not supported as STANDARD will developers use as STANDARD. Standards promote consistency and if you want something in a platform then you need to include it standard… this is not like we are talking about a required device such as a memory card for saving data, but more or less as a “Add-On” which historically has never done very well. Developers WILL NOT take advantage of the hard drive if it is not standard… and while they could implement an HDD detection in the developer tools to enable caching if it finds a hard drive this still limits how the developer can use the hard drive. Features such as “In Game” custom soundtracks and innovative uses of the Xbox360’s hard drive for game use can not be taken advantage of as the developer can not guarantee that it will be present. The hard drive in the original Xbox made certain games possible and I do not see how developer’s can be as innovative without the presence of the hard drive. Even if the majority of users have a hard drive the developer will not be willing to alienate the base by “requiring” certain games to have the hard drive... in short this fragments the user base. I good example of this would be MMO type games where the presence of a hard drive is often a REQUIREMENT due to the consistent updating of game data as well as future expansions. It is more difficult to support user created content in games (such as maps and modifications) as there is no hard drive to store these on… and most developers will be less willing to incorporate this into their games. It MUST be STANDARD for developers to support it… and having a version that does not have it included as standard means that it is no longer standard, even if only a small minority has the version with no hard drive. From a consumer’s standpoint… Your average consumer will naturally be attracted to the cheaper version and then will wonder why later on certain things that was promised does not work “as advertised”… now how will that consumer react when that consumer finds out that in order to have backward compatibility or certain other functions that you will have to purchase the hard drive add-on? The reaction will not be pleasant and this reaction will be focused towards not only the product, but those that sell that product. You advertise backward compatibility and nifty functions such as custom soundtracks, downloadable content, Xbox Live, and the Live Marketplace and yet you require the consumer that purchases the $299.99 model (knowing FULL well that this is the one that the consumer will be attracted towards first) that these functions require another expensive purchase… and yet had they purchased the premium version they would not have to worry about this. Now why exactly are we offering a “Core System” version again knowing full well what the average consumer is going to be attracted towards and knowing what they are going to want out of the system from the advertisement that they was informed about? This is a bad way to treat consumers with a bait and switch tactic such as this when you advertise something and then say that you can have such and such version, but you also need such and such in order to get certain functions that was advertised. Again why offer a version with no hard drive when you KNOW that the vast majority of users WANT the hard drive to be present and will opt for the premium version that has the hard drive? Updating the Xbox360 for future needs… With the original Xbox you had a 512MB partition on the hard drive that the system used to store files and content for the system dashboard. Over time Microsoft provided updates in various games as well as through Xbox Live that contain updates to the system files to update the system to support new or improved functions as well as necessary updates to the Xbox Live service as they add new features in that particular service… and often times these updates require quite a bit of storage space. Now I don’t know how much space the dashboard in the Xbox360 takes up or the files for Xbox Live, but I don’t think it would fit on a memory card and the updates to the system/Xbox Live certainly won’t fit on a memory card. The only way around this would be to include a FlashROM in the system itself of about 128MB-256MB that the system could use to store the various files and updates to those files… but this is also more expensive. I am not clear on how Microsoft can handle this… but there is very little you can do without having a hard drive present and standard on the system. This effectively limits what Microsoft can do with the system in the future. The problem and the solution… Here is the list of problems that is created by having no hard drive in the Xbox360: *You limit what you can do to improve or add new features to the system itself. *Backward compatibility can not be achieved without a hard drive. *Custom Soundtracks (supposedly a standard feature) can not be achieved without a hard drive. *Xbox Live is severely limited and possibly not even present *No Xbox Live Arcade (which is also supposedly a standard feature), *No Live MarketPlace, no Xbox Live updates, no downloadable content, no player created content… etc. *It’s no longer standard… and that means developers can no longer use the drive in innovative ways to improve the game experience because it is not standard. *Two versions means less available units of a certain type for constrained situations such as the launch environment or holiday situations… this also means excess inventory of one version or the other if one does not do as well as the other. *Bad public relations… it is EXPECTED a hard drive to be present and the system is advertised to have certain functions and some of these functions can not be achieved without a hard drive present. This is a bait and switch tactic. *You fragment the user base as certain games will REQUIRE a hard drive in order to play those certain games. *Increased expense as you need to produce these extra units that differs from the standard unit as well as making sure that such and such will work correctly with this version. Less sell through rate of one version or the other (excess inventory). Advantages of having a hard drive in the Xbox360 as STANARD: *Developers will take full advantage of the presence of a hard drive instead of cursory acknowledgment as it is STANDARD and it is guaranteed that all systems have one present. *Backward compatibility and the necessary updates to it can be achieved. *Xbox Live can be included with each and every system with full functionality. *Updates to the system files and the Xbox Live service can be done fully to take advantage of future software technologies. *One version means you have a better sell through rate and the maximum available units to sell… likely cheaper in doing this instead of supporting two versions as you don’t have to deal with the production of the other unit as well as making sure such and such will work correctly with this version that does not have a hard drive. *”Out of Game” and “In Game” custom sound tracks can be achieved and developers will be more willing to support in game custom sounds tracks with a standard hard drive present. *Live Marketplace can be used fully. *Xbox Live Arcade can be used fully. *User base is not fragmented and all games can take advantage of the entire user base instead of the portion that has the hard drive present. The solution is simple to me... Get rid of the “Core System” version of the Xbox360 that does not include the hard drive. It is as simple as that… as long as there is ONE version that has the hard drive then it will be supported as standard and you can advertise the functions the way it SHOULD be advertised and not as a bait and switch. You can still have a “Two Version” plan… one having certain extra accessories that the other will not, but they BOTH MUST INCLUDE THE HARD DRIVE. In this way it will be standard and the system can be used the way it is meant to be used. So here is my compromise… *A “Standard” Xbox360 system that contains the Xbox360 hardware, a 20GB hard drive, a wired controller, plus the needed cords and cables and offer this for $299.99-$349.99. *A “Premium” Xbox360 system that contains the Xbox360 hardware, a 20GB (or larger) hard drive, a wireless controller, the DVD media remote, the HighDef kit, and the various needed cords and cables and offer this for $349.99-$399.99. -OR- Just offer one version of the Xbox360 system that contains the Xbox360 hardware, a 20GB hard drive, a wireless controller (with the cable that converts it to a wired controller), and the needed cables and cords and offer this for $349.99. Plans would have to change only minimally to accomplish this and would not be too hard to implement. In the end… One of the major innovations that Microsoft brought to the console industry this generation was the inclusion of the hard drive which made a lot of things possible for the Xbox that would normally not be possible, even if the drive was offered as a add-on like with the PS2. More than this… a lot of people appreciated the fact that they did not have to go out and speed money on a memory card in order to save their games. Trust me when I say that memory card prices are not very cheap and will only continue to increase in price ($39.99 for the 64MB memory unit for the Xbox360… similar prices for those DUO PRO memory sticks that the PSP and the PS3 uses and larger capacity ones being higher priced). For Microsoft to do this is to take a step backwards in gaming innovations… and this I do not support more than anything else. I am sure those people that do get the “Core System” version of the Xbox360 will not appreciate having to pay out $39.99 for a memory card and another $99.99 for the hard drive in order to get what they want out of the system as well as the advertised functions. Its not good for the future of the system, it is the same as taking a step backward in gaming innovations, you fragment the base, you likely increase your overall cost by supporting two versions, it is bad for the consumer, it is bad for the developer, and as a result it is bad for gaming. So why offer a version that does not have a hard drive knowing that the majority of people will opt for the version that does knowing the ramifications of not including it STANDARD on each and every system? For a choice? I have to disagree with the reasons for doing this and I would URGE Microsoft to change their mind on this again as they have done so before. Listen to your base and make the choice that is best for gaming and the consumers… in doing this you will guarantee dominance in the next generation of console gaming. What can YOU do? Between now and the launch of the Xbox360 you have the TGS and Microsoft’s X05 event. It is possible that Microsoft made this announcement in order to get Sony to announce their pricing and bundle plans, which likely will occur during the TGS next month and could very well quickly change plans and announce a STANDARD hard drive during the X05 event for both versions of the Xbox360 or even just one single version of the Xbox360 for $299.99 that includes most if not all of the features of the premium version. Microsoft is a company, contrary to popular believe, IS a company that will listen to their base and they have been known to change their position on various subjects such as this hard drive issue in response to a popular appeal. They can do this once more in regards to the Xbox360 and I don’t see any reason why they won’t… but certain things will have to occur. Contact Microsoft and those officially affiliated with them and demand that the hard drive to be standard, either by methods of communication such as eMail or by meeting them directly (such as through events like the X05 or such vendor shows that EB Games/GameStop has yearly… typically they hold their vendor shows in September). Make them aware of the consequences of not including a STANDARD hard drive… give them possible solutions to this issue where the result is that the hard drive is standard with each and every system. The more they are made aware the more likely they will reconsider their position and I plan on making them aware through my own channels. Microsoft has to at the very least address the issues that is brought by not including a hard drive standard and they have to provide a reason better than “A Choice” as this “Choice” creates more problems than it solves and is likely more expensive than a single version. Do what you feel is appropriate and hope for the best… but plan on the premium version of the Xbox360 as this is the version we was planning on all along. This should NOT be a reason to not get a Xbox360 as we play on these console systems for the GAMES, not for whether or not it includes such and such. Afterall… the PS3 will not likely include a HDD either and certainly not Nintendo’s next system. Thanks for reading and do what you can to urge Microsoft to once more change their mind for the sake of the consumer and gaming. 15 -
Q and AUnregistered - Lucid360 08.24.2005 17:50 Yes he did not answer to much... But you will notice the questions were about only really a few things..people asking questions about the same thing over and over again. About the core and x360. The X360 is the system with the $400 price tage the core is for people who want to play the games and not have the full functionality... due to financial issues they are targeting and entry level and a full system level (from PC realm). It has been stated as such already to be the XBox360 is the system for $400. It will Launch before December 2005... If they put it off till 2006 they might as well fold it up, to much publicity has gone to a pre Thanksgiving release, they can deny it saying they never stated it but we have heard from people AROUND which date it will come out. I have also heard it got moved up to October here locally. You heard it got Pushed back to 2006... Which makes me believe the November release is about right. Once those China manufacturing companies get the stuff they will be pumping those things out by the 100,000's per shift and it'll be all good once the actual manufacturing starts. Which is why i figure they are still holding off on the exact date for everything. Add Comment |
|
 |
|
Privacy
Statement
|
Advertise With Us
|
Xbox
360 News is in no way affiliated with Microsoft Corp. All content/trademarks
are owned by their respective owners. ©Copyright 2005 All Rights Reserved Xbox360News.com |
